“My life is my message. You must be the change you wish to see in the world.”—Mahatma Gandhi
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Yes….”it is tremendously beneficial for our military to have amongst its leaders men and women who have the benefit of a Catholic, Jesuit education. In other words, Marquette ROTC alums provide a leaven for good in our military. They bring the perspective of their Catholic, Jesuit education with its particular emphasis on ethics and Christianity to their service as military leaders. In these troubled times, I am more convinced than ever that people with the benefit of a Catholic, Jesuit education and their commitment to ethics are needed in our military.”
(from letter to Bob Graf from Father Wild S.J., President of Marquette University 2/9/06.
No..The Military Departments at Marquette trains men and woman from nine public and private colleges and universities in the metro Milwaukee Area. The military teaches on campus values that are contrary to the Catholic faith. For example, the Army teaches that religious values “must reinforce, not contradict, Army values.” (Army Field Manual, [FM 22–100, Chapter 2–32] )
On the other hand the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches: “The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2242)
No, if so-called Christians don’t believe and follow the nonviolent Jesus, than who will. Jesus clearly called people to nonviolence, and the early church recognized that.
No! Military training utilizes dehumanization tactics.
Whether it is breaking down and then rebuilding recruits, training officers to coldly send others to their death or teaching that the enemy is just an object, the decivilizing of humanity is there.
That the U.S. military is used to support our comfortable empire at a cost of much suffering and death to others makes all Americans guilty of continuing the crucifixion. Any university or church body that supports this or is complicit via silence is likewise guilty.
I think it is very telling when a religious university or church body takes a stand on this issue and other issues that follows the money idol rather than the creator God.
For those that say we need military training/recruiting on campus or in high schools to protect us from our fears, remember, God and fear cannot occupy the same space. You can pretend to be with God or you can be free of fear.
I would have to say NO if one is to strictly define “morals and ethics” but if one is a citizen of our government whose policies have since the end of World War 2, been blatantly militaristic then the answer is Maybe.
The church has always been supportive of federal policies like it or not and most citizens have fallen in line as sheep usually do!
No. it caters to those who finance the University and is therefore scandalous.
Yes, it is absolutely as moral and ethical for Marquette to provide military training as it is for the general public or public educational institutions to provide for military training. If one is going to subscribe to the thought that providing a military of any sort is a good thing, and Marquette is willing to engage in feeding at the public trough, then the question as written becomes entirely moot. If one subscribes to the general theory of non-violence as operationally defined by Ghandi, including Ghandi’s use of Christian scriptura teachings as a precept for non-violence, then one must oppose violence in all forms, period. If one is open to any form of violence, then why should a private “Christian” entity be exempt? I think it would be dishonest and hypocritical to believe otherwise.
NO! Is this really what we want to teach our young people - that violence is an answer to the problems the world is facing? We should be teaching Jesus’ way - the way of nonviolence. If we look at history, there is always a point in time where we could have done things differently and avoided the violence of war, but we have not been taught to look for another way - other than violence.
This is not an easy question it does not have an easy answer. It is not as black and white as many of us want it to be, 100% yes or 100% no. We must dialogue. That is why we are here. First, we must be sure that we distinguish here between the ROTC program and people we know in ROTC. This is not an attack on our friends who are in the program, which for many of us is a sizable number, but the principles of the program itself. I, myself, garrett, believe that it is immoral to host ROTC here on campus. Immoral for many people to be here at Marquette thanks to the provisions made tuition-wise? No, of course not! Immoral because not just Marquette students are trained here how to fight for our country, but also students from various other universities and colleges around the city of Milwaukee. Immoral because we are not only a training ground, but a HUB of a training ground. Immoral because what we are training for MAY BE self-defense or the spread of democracy in the world, but these are simply masks: looking deeply, spending a few moments with a clear mind, we see that beneath militaristic “self-defense” and “fighting for democracy” is violence, dehumanization, and hate of our neighbor, the very things we are taking a stand AGAINST as Americans and Christians. Hate of our NEIGHBOR! You cannot intentionally kill someone without dehumanizing them first in some way; there is no one on this Earth too evil to love, and it is impossible to love someone and to kill them at the same time. Nonviolence can mean great sacrifice, of our own lives and many others’ lives. But this is what Jesus calls us to as Christians: sacrifice. Complete and radical love in nonviolence. “Love your enemies” means nothing less than what it says. Christianity is following Christ. Following Christ is living Christ, nonviolence in every step, every thought, every movement, especially as a Jesuit University. If we value our own life above the Truth, above God, then nonviolence sounds absurd. We are called to something different. Think about it. No single one of us can have all of the answers; let us live Christ as best we can.
NO to ROTC.
NO. Jesus, Ignatius, All the martyrs of our faith would be ashamed to see a Jesuit University supporting the military --- over their own faith. I am disappointed and saddened that MU would choose the status quo over their own faith.
No. This is not moral or ethical. Let’s create heaven on earth.
No! When no MU administrators would say yes or no to this moral question I asked them: “Is it moral or ethical for Marquette to host an abortion clinic on campus. One administrator answered this question saying that it was clear and obvious that Marquette would not host an abortion clinic on campus. Yes, Marquette would not host an abortion center but permits students to participate in nearby abortion clinics.
A number of universities ranging from Harvard and Columbia to University of Wisconsin Milwaukee do not host ROTC on campus but permit students to participate in nearby centers. Marquette hosting military training centers for men and women to learn how to kill, in my opinion is the same as MU hosting an abortion clinic on campus. As Pope Benedict XVI recently reminded us the dignity of human life central to Church’s resistance to abortion extends to human life after birth.
Marquette, Be faithful to the Gospel and no longer host military training on campus.
No. The ROTC program is absolutely incompatible with the qualities of Jesus that the Christian faith reveres and professes to emulate. I hope that Marquette will entertain a sense of idealism and see that this type of perspective is not fruitless or weak. If Marquette University would center itself behind the supreme cause that is peace, the outcome would be a realignment with the Catholic, Jesuit values for which it stands. It is often argued that, for many, the opportunity to receive an excellent education may not otherwise be possible if not for the ROTC program. But touting this claim as a reason to retain ROTC on campus assumes and reinforces that military service is the only cause worthy enough to warrant providing a paid-for education. Is this what Marquette believes? Could there not be programs through which students receive an education in exchange for service to America in the form of teaching, engineering, medical assistance, building, counseling, or whatever their area of focus has become at college? Programs like this certainly will not be implemented until influential and respected institutions like Marquette University state their necessity. Why do we not give students the opportunity to receive an education in exchange for truly acting as “women and men for and with others”? Why do we stand by, complicit in the teaching of violence masked as a respectable thing? Marquette, take a stand and prove that this University actually is devoted to the values it advertises.
If Marquette U is a Christian university, how can it promote and encourage the use of a military to resolve problems in the world? Christ taught the only way to resolve problems. He taught love of one’s enemies, praying for them, doing good to them. If He believed that violence was the solution to gaining freedom and human rights He certainly would have advocated using violence against the Romans who were enslaving, persecuting, killing and committing all sorts of human rights violations against the Jews. He did not. In fact, He told Peter to put down the sword after he attacked the soldier arrestng Jesus with a sword cutting off his ear. Jesus said, “Put away the sword. Those who live by the sword will die by the sword.” In today’s world we see this over and over again. Those who choose violence as a means to attain good end losing the happiness they are seeking. Christ is wiser than humans. We are not. Thos in charge of Marquette U. also are not wiser than Christ. If the mission of M.U. is to witness to Christ it must close the ROTC and begin teaching the message of Christ, the message of love and nonviolence.
No. Franz Jagerstatter was taught that there were just wars and unjust wars. For sure, he knew how unjust the Nazi cause was in WWII. He refused to fight, to kill for the Nazis. If he had lived beyond the horror of WWII he would have been convinced that no war is just.
Franz Jagerstatter was beheaded for refusing to kow-tow to the Nazis. If he had lived beyond the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the fire bombing of cities around the world up to and including the recent Shock and Awe bombing of the people of Baghdad, he would have put aside the claim of Augustine that some wars are just.
Franz would not accept that claim today. Not after 60 million people died in the aclaimed “good war” of WWII. Nor would he have seen any justice in the continual taking of civilian life since his death in 1943.
The United States Infantry motto is “Follow Me”. The motto of Franz was to follow Jesus, the nonviolent Jesus, not the pre-medieval Bishop Augustine and the medieval monk, Thomas Aquinas (both declared Saints by the RC Church). Both found theological justification to appease regional leaders in matters of war and killing.
Franz used no loopholes in his faith. Franz followed Christ, not Augustine or Aquinas.
But the monks have won over Jesus. The Jesuits (and so many other “Christians”)continue to extol war as virtue under a number of circumstances. The Jesuits refuse to consider the present state of armed conflict. They rationalize the massive number of innocent victims of war, by claiming “justice.” They seem to exclude not just the civilian population but the indoctrinated or enforced young people taught to render to the rule of Caesar (whatever countries Caesar)to kill and break things with the approved license called “war”.
Jack Gilroy, author of Franz Jagerstatter—Render to Caesar? www.franzprayforus.org
NO! In Steptember of 1982 the President of St. John’s University in Collegville, MN commissioned an ad hoc “Committe on Values and the ROTC” to answer the question: “Does the sponsorship of ROTC at SJU constittue endorsement of values opposed to the Christian and Benedictine character of the University?”
In their May 1983 final report the Values Committe by a 6–2 majority answered affirmative to the original question put to them. (Despite the report ROTC continues at St. John’s).
No. For us as students, faculty, administration - as humans - this issue is naturally a really difficult one, as it pits reason, emotions, faith, and relationships against one another. But as Christians, we have the good fortune to be able to turn to Christ as an example when our circumstances extend beyond our capacity to see right and wrong. Looking at the example of Christ, as he speaks to us from the too often dismissed Sermon on the mount, we must love our enemies - it is too large a leap in logic from “loving your enemies” to “killing you enemies” to be bridged by “moralizing” violence, as proponents of ROTC claims a Christian perspective on militarism does. With that as a principle, I feel that ROTC and Jesuit values are incompatible - therefore ROTC does not have a place on Marquette’s campus.
Many great points have already been made in this debate, but there are two more I’d like to bring up. Firstly, being in ROTC and a Catholic sets up MU students for a potentially huge moral conflict on the issue of selective conscientious objection. The Catechism allows for Christians to object to war on a “war-to-war” basis on the grounds of “selective conscientious objection”, but the U.S. Army says it’s all or none when it comes to objecting to war. This is a division of loyalties a M.U. student shouldn’t have to face.
Secondly, simply having R.O.T.C. on campus occupies the space that could be filled by a creative non-violent means of conflict resolution. It’s impossible to predict the progress that could be made if the human and capital resources currently directed towards R.O.T.C. were shifted towards scholarships and curriculum focused on non-violent peace making. Marquette has the potential to be at the vanguard of something beautiful.
Response to Son of Liberty,
You raise some good questions and points,
If Marquette did not host Departments of Military Science (ROTC), MU students, like UWM and other local university students, would still be able to receive a ROTC scholarship to attend Marquette.
In our faith we make a distinction between a moral action and the person. I may not agree with a person having an abortion or someone’s position on homosexuality but I can still love and respect the person. Jesus asked us not to judge each other morally but to be clear on our morality.
I am against the war in Iraq yet respect men and woman soldiers who fight the war.
By MU hosting the military, not just offering ROTC, MU is supporting and agreeing with moral issues that are in direct conflict with the Catholic Church.
Thank you again for bringing this question to the forefront. I will be glad to discuss this issue with you on or off line.
Response to Son of Liberty: Your quote “In our faith…” from my posting is taken out of context and misused. What I said was: “In our faith we make a distinction between a moral action and the person. I may not agree with a person having an abortion or someone’s position on homosexuality but I can still love and respect the person.” I may have improperly assumed you were a Catholic or Christian, but can back up in the Gospels and in the Catechism of the Catholic Church this particular statement. Since this debate forum is not about this moral principle I’d rather do it off line. My email is Bobsyouruncle@nonviolentcow.org.
Alverno, Mount Mary, Carroll College, Carthage College, MSOE, UW Parkway, Concordia University and thousands of Universities all over the USA offer ROTC scholarships to their students without hosting departments of military science on campus. There are a number of military facilities in the Milwaukee Metro area where the training could take place. You can check the
Marquette, Be Faithful to the Gospel, No Longer Host the Departments of Military Sciences web page or again write me off-line for more information.
Son of Liberty: This is a debate forum on a particular moral issue. Please debate the issue and refrain from personal attacks or misrepresentations of individuals who do not agree with you.
You raise a good question Son of Liberty: Who would offer ROTC in the Milwaukee area if Marquette did not? You can find my response at Morals Or Money. Do you or the military officers know how much money Marquette makes hosting military training and teaching war?
Dear Son of Liberty,
There are four departments of military sciences at MU, Army, Navy, Marines and Air Force. UWM has just reintroduced at Department of Military Science for Army with no opposition.
We, most of us, are not opposing scholarships for ROTC units at MU. ROTC at the 13 schools that train at the MU military bases received tuition and fees for their respective schools.
I suggest you read the eduational literature we passed out at graduation since you and your family are not the only persons who believe we are opposing ROTC on campus. We are not. You can find more information at
If after reading this information you have any other questions about this moral and ethical issue, stated above, please feel free to contact me personally at
. Hope to hear from you personally soon.
“TEACHING THE VALUES OF PEACE IN THE CITIES AND INDIAN COUNTRY”
By: Mike (Ali) Raccoon Eyes Kinney
As a Cherokee Native American Activist and a former member of the Richmond California Violence Prevention Movement, I have seen close to 515 homicides in the City of Richmond from 2001 to the present.
The declaration of a ‘war on violence’ by the Richmond city government was not the panacea, instead it failed miserably.
I have often stated in town hall meetings and on television, the best way to win the ‘war on violence’ in Richmond is to ‘TEACH THE VALUES OF PEACE’.
In the killing fields of Richmond, most of the victims of homicides are youth or young adults. Teaching the values of peace begins with our youth and young adults. From a Native perspective, winning the war on violence begins in the home with a strong, spiritual belief and value system.
We believe that Creator made all generations, past, present and those of the future, holy people. This is what our Elders teach us from the time we are born.
Our families and Elders teach our young people that they must tear away the images and stereotypes that mainstream society has placed upon them as Native peoples.
Violence and killing is not traditional in Native culture, it is a learned behavior from mainstream society.
We teach our youths not to attack, punish or beat themselves up for crimes that they have never committed in regards to racism. Our Elders and families teach our young people to have good self-esteem, self-worth and self-value, for as the original holy people this was Creators plan.
Native people know that it is both family and community responsibility to teach the values of peace to our young people.
We teach our young people honesty and accountability concerning violence. It begins with accepting responsibility for self and acknowledging any past use of violence.
Admitting any wrongdoing, communicating openly and truthfully to renounce the use of violence in the future places our youth on the right path. We place a heavy emphasis that all life is sacred.
The final lesson in teaching the values of peace is quite simple. It is helping young people understand their relationship to others and all things in Creation.
Be responsible for your role, act with compassion and respect, and remember ALL LIFE IS SACRED. Native culture is prevention!
Mike (Ali) Raccoon Eyes Kinney
Son of Liberty comments can be found on Annoyonmous Comments. See Debate Rule #5 above.
It is not ethical or moral for MU to host military training. Depite many attempts by individuals to justify killing another human being. It is written clearly in the Sermon on the Mount Love your enemies. MU can not correctly argue that hosting the training of individuals to prepare them for war and killing is consistent with the faith they claim to subscribe to. Any sort of blessing, legitimizing, or hosting of military training is not compatible with Christianity. Maruqette should cut all ties with the military.
No. One cannot call oneself a follower of Christ and then proceed to refuse to do what Christ asked. No Christian can follow Christ by going to war. No Christian may teach our young to fight for any reason. No Christian can kill another no matter how rational or right it might seem. Christ was very clear about this both in word and deed. Peace, Don Timmerman
No. I do not believe that it is morally or ethically right for Marquette University, as a Christian University,to host ROTC on its campus. The presence of the military on the campus defies the principles of peace and nonviolence that should be at the very heart of Catholic social teaching.
No, MU should not be teaching war on campus.
Yes, MU should not be teaching war on campus. The entire program should be evicted. And the Bible / First Century Christian view that war is always and under every circumstance a sin, should be taught instead. For listing of the pertinent Bible commandments and principles against war, see http://medicolegal.tripod.com/warisasin.htm
Canonization cause opened for Marine chaplain who died in Vietnam
By Nancy Frazier O’Brien
Catholic News Service
WASHINGTON (CNS) — With the permission of the Vatican, the U.S. Archdiocese for the Military Services has begun an inquiry that could lead to the canonization of Maryknoll Father Vincent R. Capodanno, a U.S. Navy chaplain who died in 1967 while serving with the Marines in Vietnam.
Msgr. Roland A. Newland, chancellor of the archdiocese, made the formal declaration of the opening of Father Capodanno’s cause May 21 during the 12th annual Memorial Day Mass at the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington.
With the declaration, the New York-born priest also receives the title “servant of God.” A tribunal set up by the Archdiocese for the Military Services will gather information about Father Capodanno’s life and virtues for eventual presentation to the Vatican Congregation for Saints’ Causes.
Archbishop Edwin F. O’Brien, head of the military archdiocese, was the main celebrant for the Mass, attended by more than 1,500 people.
In his homily at the Mass, Father Louis V. Iasiello, a rear admiral who is chief of Navy chaplains, said Father Capodanno “is more than a person of extraordinary military accomplishment. … He is also a Christian who lived an exemplary life of extraordinary virtue, a person who, through the testament of his life, offers all believers a model of faith to inspire them to live, more deeply, their own Christian vocation.”
Father Iasiello said it was fitting that the chaplain’s canonization cause be opened around Memorial Day, when Americans “take time and honor their dead with flowers, flags, memorial speeches and, of course, with prayer.”
“It is no mere coincidence that today, at yet another time of national emergency, and at a time set aside to honor America’s heroes, that at this particular time, the church would single out one of these heroes and celebrate their unique contributions to both their country and to us, the people of faith,” he added.
Although many veterans left Southeast Asia “with physical, psychological and spiritual wounds,” Father Iasiello said, others left “with some positive memories, especially the loving memory of having known a very special chaplain and priest, one who day and night, both in and out of combat, reflected the love and mercy of God in their midst.”
Born Feb. 13, 1929, on Staten Island in New York, Vincent Robert Capodanno studied at Maryknoll seminaries and was ordained to the priesthood June 14, 1958. He served for the first eight years of his priesthood as a Maryknoll missionary in Taiwan and Hong Kong.
Commissioned as a lieutenant in the U.S. Navy Dec. 28, 1965, Father Capodanno asked to serve with the Marines in Vietnam and joined the 1st Marine Division in 1966 as battalion chaplain.
According to a biography on the Web site of the military archdiocese, “Marines affectionately called Chaplain Capodanno the ‘grunt padre’ for his ability to relate well with soldiers and his willingness to risk his life to minister to the men.” “Grunt” is slang for a member of the U.S. infantry.
He extended his one-year tour of duty in Vietnam by six months to continue serving with his men.
Fatally wounded by enemy sniper fire Sept. 4, 1967, he was posthumously awarded the nation’s highest military honor, the Medal of Honor, “for conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty.”
Memorials to Father Capodanno include chapels, a boulevard, military buildings, a scholarship fund and the USS Capodanno, commissioned in 1973 for anti-submarine warfare and decommissioned 20 years later.
Mass to open Cause in Father’s home town of Pilsen on 29June2008.
Written by Diocese of Wichita
Thursday, 12 June 2008 10:08
The Cause for the Canonization of Father Emil Kapaun, an Army Chaplain who died while in a North Korean Prisoner of War Camp in 1951, will be officially opened on June 29. Bishop Michael O. Jackels will be the celebrant of the 10 a.m. Mass in Pilsen, Kan., Father Kapaun’s home town. After the celebration of the Mass, a short ceremony will take place in which the officials of the diocesan canonization process will take their oath of office and the Father Emil Kapaun’s Cause for Sainthood will be officially opened. A picnic lunch will follow.
Father Emil Kapaun, a native of Pilsen, was ordained for the Catholic Diocese of Wichita on June 9, 1940. After serving as a priest in the Diocese, Father Kapaun asked to be allowed to serve as a U.S. Army chaplain. During World War II, Chaplain Kapaun served in the India/Burma theater.
Upon his return after the war, Father Kapaun studied at Catholic University of America and served once again in the Diocese of Wichita. Answering the Army’s call for chaplains, Father Kapaun once again asked to be released from diocesan work to serve another tour in the Army. On Sept. 25, 1948, Father Kapaun was granted permission to re-enlist in the Army. Chaplain Kapaun proved to be a heroic priest and chaplain to the men that he served. Volunteering to stay behind with the injured, Chaplain Kapaun was captured by the North Korean and Communist Chinese forces.
Chaplain Kapaun’s service to his fellow prisoners has become legendary among those who knew of him. Scores of men attribute their survival to Chaplain Kapaun enlivening their hope in better days to come. Chaplain Kapaun was taken to the camp hospital, known to the prisoners as the “death house” where he was left to die. On May 23, 1951, Chaplain Kapaun died. His fellow prisoners wept at their loss.
There has already been considerable work completed toward Father Kapaun’s Cause. Archbishop O’Brien started the ball rolling in 1993 when he called for Father Kapaun to receive the title of Servant of God. Through the past 15 or so years, both the Archdiocese of the Military Services and the Diocese of Wichita have been collecting information on Father Kapaun’s life of virtue. The information gathered thus far will provide a basis for the documentation needed for the canonization process.
On June 29, 2008 two separate commissions will be established to formally scrutinize and document Father Kapaun’s virtuous life. The Theological Commission will be given the task of reviewing all of Father Kapaun’s writings. The Historical Commission will be taking testimony from all who knew or had met Father Kapaun. This will prove to be an extensive investigation of Father Kapaun’s life, from his youth in Pilsen through his years as a Priest in the Diocese of Wichita to his service as an Army Chaplain and his ultimate death in the North Korean Prison Camp.
Once this information has been gathered and documented, it will be sent to the Congregation for Saints in Rome. Dr. Andrea Ambrosi of the Ambrosi Law Firm in Rome will help guide the diocesan phase of the canonization process. Once complete, Dr. Ambrosi will oversee the Roman phase of the process as the cause is presented to the Congregation for Saints.
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